ART THAT HELPS
We live in strange times - I wonder if you feel this - that nothing seems sure. What we do. What we are told. What we live on. All shifts - or crumbles. That’s my perception, just my perception.
I don’t know my role now, all my life I have helped make a thing loosely called theatre. Sometimes it was the performance of some words that someone had written, individually. Sometimes it was a meeting of a group of people to muck about. Sometimes it felt like an excuse to gather. I liked it when there was a mix up of people. Christmas was fun. But now I’m older, and I’ve stopped. Or paused. Or hesitated.
In these strange times I am thinking about what sort of theatre things are useful - I mean is getting together and mucking about particularly helpful at the moment? It’s so complicated - and contested - and noisy. Noisiness isn’t welcome. Do we have the energy now for contests and complexity?
While I sit in my not knowing state, I notice arty/theatery things that do seem useful. I remember a couple of old projects that seem to be relevant. I read about Greek Theatre, particularly the Chorus, and I see a people like Eric MacLennan and Esther Campbell sensitively shifting their practice. Both artists have moved from one specialism to make projects with volunteers. There are a couple of commonalities - both use skills learned in their previous practice to deliver this new work and both happen to have made recent work in, and about, woods. I will talk to both, write up the conversations - perhaps there will be others.
1. ERIC
In 2021 the artist Eric MacLennan conceived and produced a project called The Lesnes Hundred which invited 100 members of the public to nominate 100 ‘unsung heroes’. Eric recorded interviews with each nominator talking about their choice. Each nominee was then linked to a tree in Lesnes Woods, ancient woodland in South East London. The 100 trees representing the newly sung heroes were then curated into a walk and subsequently became the subject of a book. The interviews are available to listen to on Sound Cloud. The book is available at https://metalculture.bigcartel.com/product/the-lesnes-hundred
I had previously collaborated with Eric on various performance projects - mainly promenade theatre and pantomime. When Eric launched the project I nominated a relative who had been a carer and inspiration for me in my early years. I was then surprised to discover that a friend and colleague, Dan Copeland, had nominated me. Thus I experienced the project from two separate angles.
The following conversation took place in August 2021.
Jonathan Petherbridge: So the project you created, The Lesnes Hundred, had a clear function for me, and I think for the other people that I observed when I came along to the opening event, so what I'm interested in is, creative work that has a utility, art that has a utilitarian purpose.
Eric MacLennan: It's very satisfying to make something that has a utilitarian use, because then you feel you're not making something that's frivolous. When I started working with people on this their responses told me that this was an important thing for them to be celebrating… an unsung person. And what they were getting from it was also important to them. And people very often would thank me with great enthusiasm, or they would talk about the person and say, do they qualify? When will you let me know, if I can be part of this project? And I said, "you're in, we're talking now".
JP: Tell me where it came from?
EM: So for 30 odd years, I've been very happy working as a jobbing actor. And the nature of that means that quite often you have to do another job. And for many years that was fine. I worked for a publisher, and it was quite easy to dip in and out of that. But as I got older, it got harder. I felt I was sort of betraying myself, every time I had to go back to the office, I felt that was not me. Once the pressures of money started to be less of an issue and I felt more confident I started writing applications for small commissions. And to begin with I didn't get them, and then the writing of them gets a bit easier. And what was interesting about that was that quite often, they will be asking for something specific. And you would answer the question as if it was about solving a puzzle, they're asking for something, how do you do this? And so some of the commission's I've done - and I'm interested in work that's crossing boundaries, it's more than one art form - it would come out of an unsuccessful application. So the original one for The Lesnes Hundred was up in Northumberland in areas where there's low participation in the arts. Often places where people buy the most lottery tickets is where there's the least engagement in arts.
JP: Yes.
EM: There are various organisations that are trying to address that with work that's accessible, that attracts people to art who often feel art is not for them. And I'm interested in that - I'm really excited by those things where you're saying "No" this is not a middle-class club, it’s for everyone. So, the call-out in the north of England was for a park, and it was an interesting area - the Charlton brothers grew up in the town, it’s a mining town, it had this history of trade unionism and great sports people footballers and cricketers, and I looked at photographs of the park and it was ugly and I thought, well, maybe you could attract people into the park if all the oak trees were named after footballers. And the chestnuts were people from the health service or whatever. But they didn't quite go for that.
JP: So, their objective was to attract people into the park - to animate the park
EM: They wanted to celebrate the park, which was unloved and they wanted an art project to do that. So that was the problem or puzzle I was trying to solve. They said no, thank you very much. But there was enough in the idea about naming or renaming trees that continued to percolate. Then the Lesnes Hundred project, or, rather, the Estuary Festival, were looking for works for their festival along the Thames Estuary. And by that point, I had started thinking about unsung people. It was partly through the pandemic where we'd been clapping for heroes as that was called and I was inspired by Postman's park in London, which was that place where they celebrated people who'd sacrificed their lives to save others, and I thought actually this is an interesting thing - to celebrate the unsung. And when I pitched the idea to the Estuary Festival, and to London Borough of Bexley, they liked the idea and so that's where it started. And they want people to walk the site. So making something where you're getting people to walk around makes sense. The thing that I've done is largely invisible, but if people know about it, they can find the trees. And they can find the stories, the interviews are on Soundcloud so they can access them.
JP: I experienced it from two sides, I saw the invitation to nominate somebody, and I did. Then I went to the launch event and discovered that I'd also been nominated. Then I had the privilege of listening to both interviews on SoundCloud, one of which is me talking about my Aunt Doris. And then, I listened to the interview between you and Dan about me. And it was interesting and useful to hear you reflect on some things that I've done - I didn't know that people thought those things. So it feels like something that could be a service… that could be accessible for everybody, just a regular conversation between a persons friends, about that person.
EM: I think that's wonderful. And, it's been, it's been one of the privileges of my life making theatre with you. But I would, I would be too shy to say the things to you that I said to Dan, because… we don't do that for some reason.
JP: So recording the conversation and putting it on SoundCloud introduces a curtain. I, who or whoever, can sit behind the curtain and listen to what's being said in the conversation - it's a veil. In these times, it might be a useful device to help people feel valued.
EM: I wanted people to pick people who were still living, I thought, we're celebrating the trees, and they're living. And I want people to celebrate unsung people who are living. But inevitably, people came to me and they said, my husband died last year, and I want I want to pick him. And I thought, well, I can't say no to that. But the ability to be talking about someone who isn't there in the room, be they alive or dead seems to be very valuable. And most people have provided a photograph of the person. And that's a really lovely collection of faces, and you look at the faces, and you can see the kindness on those faces. And just hearing about someone's life, there's a children's poet in Sweden, there's a caretaker who's only known as "Caretaker Tony". And he’s someone who is just looking after this estate, and someone who lives there, knows that this person is keeping it running smoothly for no reward, no thanks. So that's a story that I think we enjoy hearing.
JP: So what would you call yourself when you're doing something like this?
EM: Well, when I'm doing something like this, I'm rather delighted that people introduce me and they say, ‘Oh, this is the Artist, Eric’, and I think, great, I'm an Artist! And I suppose you know, I've always felt my work in the theatre is as an Artist, but I'm aware that it can be seen as a frivolous activity. When I started making my own work, the first thing I got funding for was a thing called A Voyage Around My Bedroom. And it was cross between installation and performance - the performance was one-to-one. And when the forms went back to the Arts Council when the project was finished, and then got logged away, I then looked at the final document, and it was funded in the section of visual arts. And I was delighted I thought this will have been logged as theatre. But no, that project has been categorised as visual arts. So in some places I get called an Artist.
JP: OK. But the people who came along the launch event what do you think they would have called it?
EM: We dithered over what to call the event and in the end we just called it the Celebratory Event.
JP: That’s interesting when we were considering what you might call yourself I wanted to suggest celebrant, although it’s a bit religious… or humanist. You’ve used the word ‘celebratory’ a few times, and also ‘frivolous’... you've apologised twice now, for the frivolity of pure art. But I'm suggesting that the project has intrinsic value. It encourages social cohesion. Knowledge, friendship. Everybody there was glowing that afternoon, everybody watching the project and walking around was at least three inches taller than they normally are.
EM: Yeah, well I'm delighted to say that I felt that too. And I think part of that glow comes from having investment and ownership in the project. People turned up there knowing that it was a real thing - it was dealing with a real person - they were doing something real. And when they went to their own tree, often it was an emotional thing. And there were tears, they had a real investment in the thing. In terms of the title of the Celebratory Event. Some people said, ‘Oh, when are you doing the performance?’ And I sort of hesitated thinking, well I know I'm going to have a singer there to celebrate the event but it's not a performance. I'm going to be there as myself. And I might say ‘thank you for coming, everyone. We're going to go over here now’. But I'm not going to be performing. And so when people said, “When are you doing the performance?”, I felt I had to correct them that I felt it wasn't a performance, it was a real thing. It was a gathering of people, in the same way that people might gather, to celebrate a wedding or gather for a funeral. Or they might gather because a bridge is going to be opened. We were there to do a task, which was to say, these trees were now named, we'd cut the ribbon, that job was done.
JP: A task.
EM: A task.
JP: One of the other things that struck me about the project is that it seems appropriate to now, to these post-pandemic times. Is that satisfying to you you as a ‘celebrant artist'?
EM: Well, I nearly went into the church, and of course, there are many similarities between the church and theatre. Someone who's got a loud voice and likes dressing up,
JP: I was going to ask you what skills are required? I mean, if you're saying it's not a performance. What skills were required from you as somebody who spoke and also somebody who curated the event?
EM: I think I have the ability to be quite gentle and approachable. So... I don't arrive and say, Hello, I'm the celebrant artist. I arrive in front of the public in a very humble way. And this is something I've learned from my days of doing promenade theatre with you, where you perform in a public space. You can't say, we're doing our show here, go away - it's a shared space, you have to arrive with humbleness
JP: So humility is one skill
EM: Humility is a skill. And an aesthetic sense, a sense of what is beautiful. I spent a long time working on images for the project, the design of the map, working out what the tags are going to be. So that the of the thing has value, so that people who are coming along participating, they're not going to get a little leaflet with typos on it, and think, ‘Oh why am I doing this, it's rubbish’, they're going to come along and think, well, the production values are very high. So, this bloke, Eric, I'm really delighted that he wants to hear about my caretaker Tony, because this is going to be valued.
JP: It's serious.
EM: It's serious.
JP: It's serious, and it's and it's valued.
EM: I have to approach people as I do in life, with respect. Again, it comes back to the joys of working in theatre, where it's a team effort, and everybody's job is important. That's very important in my work not to think like some artists who feel they are more important than the consumers of their work.
JP: It feels to me that this is a new genre - although actually, it may be a very old genre. But it’s something that blends art and celebration. And in a way it does sound frivolous.
EM: Yeah.
JP: But it's serious. And participation, as you said, is another aspect. And territory. One of the things that surprised me was I had expected the trees to be saplings. I thought it was a new planting project and I was slightly worried about it as some would survive and some wouldn’t because they're saplings…but they weren't saplings, they were mature trees that have been given an additional identity.
EM: That's nicely put. Thank you.
JP: But going back to performance, I notice in your pieces that there's usually a moment when we do something collectively, that in the drawing project, you do that thing with a string, and then the very ritualistic handing out of crayons and stones. In this piece, the collective thing was breathing. And you showed lungs and trees, and we breathed together. So, there was a collective moment. It is very unusual to do something unexpected, with a group of people that you have not met before. And to do something that could be regarded as frivolous, but that actually connects and attunes us.
EM: Well perhaps celebration is not the word, perhaps the word is ritual. And those collective things are very important to me. What's really nice about doing something like that, and it happens with The Open Air Drawing Room is that you're doing something that works like follow-my-leader, so you're not reliant on text. And people who don't have English as a first language can still participate. Because it's quite clear that I'm, I'm lifting a stool. And then we're all doing that we're all putting it on the floor. We're all standing, we're all holding hands. And you just find that we all know what to do without having to say, "can you now do this?" which is lovely. But then there is a genuine joy that comes from the fact that you find everybody is doing something together.
JP: I think it's something that needs a critical mass of people. You talked about the seriousness or the importance of the endeavour… the number of people who have turned up at a given time and are willing to muck about brings an import to the thing we're doing, whatever that thing is called. What do you think is required from art or theatre now? Is it different at the moment?
EM: I think I've always been interested in things which are experimenting. And I don't think that's any different now. In terms of in terms of The Lesnes Hundred we were limited to gathering people in groups of 27. So just on a practical level, the organisation has been done in a particular way, a lot of the meetings were on zoom, rather than face to face. But I don't think I would have approached it differently, except we're in a changing world. And I think, as I say, one of the themes of our time is celebrating the unsung, specifically the health service. So it felt that was an appropriate angle to take.
JP: It's as though nature, in the guise of the pandemic, has insisted that art makes us attend to certain things, it’s insisted on social distancing, limited numbers, and doing things out of doors. This all currently comes first, so theatre buildings have been relegated in importance and artists have been forced to do more listening. What do you do next? You’re making a book of Lesnes, but you were saying about recycling project proposals that haven't yet found backing? What have you taken from Lesnes?
EM: Well, I did a kind of miniature town twinning project that has similarities with this called “In visible (L)ink”, where people were linking let's say, a park bench in Lewisham, with their Auntie in Canada, a park bench there in Canada. And again it's about people. And that was something that I was able to take to different towns. And it occurs to me that the The Lesnes Hundred - it would have a different name obviously - could be done elsewhere. But it would depend on what the needs of that place might be. And it might end up being a different project. I don't necessarily see that it's something that would happen somewhere else. So that so that's one possibility but I have to have to see, with 100 to 200 people that their ownership wants it to continue. But I'm planning a walk in the autumn to walk the whole site, and to hear the stories. It'll take about four hours and my hope is that it potentially could become an annual thing. So that we know that, you know, whenever it’s the 30th of September, there is always a walk of The Lesnes Hundred.
JP: How would you summarise what we've been talking about?
EM: Are we talking about crossover arts?
JP: I think what I'm talking about isn't the crossover between art skills or art forms, it's the crossover between what people at the moment crave and art. It is what a society that has been isolated and separated and has been collectively depressed needs or wants. How creativity and skill can help us lift that and bring back some… social cohesion is the wrong word for it, perhaps it’s social fabric. Weave or re-weave the social fabric or just check the fabric and the warp and weft of it. And, you know, that's, what I felt that the Lesnes Hundred did, because it dealt with ritual and territory? But was it celebration? Was it information sharing? Was it Yoga?
EM: All of those things except Yoga.
JP: And yet breath is at the centre of Yoga, and you started with breath.
EM: Yes, breath because the other big theme of our day is the climate emergency. And without the trees, we would have no life so it feels it feels that a very important part of the project is to try to highlight how important the trees are, and how, as well as cherishing people, we should cherish the trees. Joseph Beuys made a wonderful project in the 70s in Kassel in Germany. The project was planting 7000 trees. And he thought about the number and in the city he felt 700 wouldn't be noticed. But 7000… people would think, yeah, there is a project here that is noticed. And in a way that project is continuing now, after his death, the trees are still loved, and Kassel is a different place. But sewn into the project is the fact that as a piece of art it doesn't fit in the commercial art world - it can't be sold. Similarly, the Lesnes Hundred cannot be sold. I feel if I was making editions and selling them, the focus of my work will be different. But a lot of the performances that I make now have funding to pay for them, so the public who participate they don't pay and that feels good. They do more than not pay, they actually contribute the material, they contribute the material and often they get given little gifts.
JP: The public have given their labour. At the centre of the Lesnes Hundred are 100 lives, and those lives have been lived and then they have to be recounted and considered, and you then forage that material. And there is the gifting of that material, and when you arrive at the free event you know other people have generously given the gift of their story. So at the event there is a spirit of generosity – it is tangible - and being anywhere where people are generous is uplifting. For one reason or another when art is generous - when you have that that sense of a gifted performance or gifted material, that is invaluable. But it’s actually valuing people.
What you're saying about the commercial arts sector reminds me of Banksy trying to put things into a public space and then people trying to either cover his works with perspex and charging people to see them or taking them down and putting them in a gallery so they can use them as an investment opportunity. Not only does it negate the free event and cut off the access to see the thing - and to be part of a gathering – but it also crushes that spirit of generosity.
EM: Yeah. And the commercial art world is very tied up with people investing in it and those people decide what is valuable and what isn't valuable. And here people are giving stories that they regard as of enormous value. They are setting out what is truly valuable.
